Freedom of choice — 18 Comments

  1. I don’t know, grandad.  I can imagine some women actually prefer to wear an burqa. Which I don’t like but I can live with it I suppose.  Many (no idea of the figures involved) don’t want to wear them and would prefer to dress like normal human beings but dare not for fear of violence or worse . That’s what I detest about the things.

  2. I know there is an argument as to whether women want to wear them or are being forced into them, but is that sufficient reason for a blanket ban [sorry!].  A lot of women apparently like them, so what about their feelings?  If women are being coerced, then that is a matter for the men and women involved, not for national legislation.

  3. dressing like a ghost when it’s not hallowe’en sounds weird, but it should definitely not be illegal.
    For that matter, does that mean that burqas (or even masks) will be illegal on hallowe’en?
    I agree that everyone should make their own minds up about what they are or are not allowed to do.
    I’m not a smoker, and I don’t do any drugs other than alcohol and caffeine (and the usual biological ones I have no control over), but do I have the right to impose my preferences on others? Hell no – by doing that, I would implicitly be allowing them to govern me in turn. Fuck that!
    You mentioned driving with seat belts. I agree with that, but not if there are kids in the car – in that case, common sense should prevail. The kids do not have enough experience to make up their own opinions on the matter properly, and it would be nice if there was a crash and the legal guardians were alive so they can rescue the kids from the car before they burn to death…
    I’m slightly overweight. But isn’t everyone? It’d be nice if I could get back to to my supposed optimum BMI, but should I be shunned if I don’t? I think not. I’ve earned those extra pounds.
    @Morris – you say that people wearing burqas are not dressing as “normal human beings”. I think you mis-spelled “normal western-society people”

  4. “If women are being coerced, then that is a matter for the men and women involved, not for national legislation.”

    You are absolutely wrong .  Let’s see; coerced. Would that include rape? Would that be a matter for the men and women involved?

  5. With regard to seat belts, I always wear mine, not because of a Nanny State law, but because I think it is a logical thing to do.  I don’t want to deprive the world of me, now do I?  And when I talk about overweight, I mean those women with arses like VLCCs or kids like blimps.  I also think Lycra cyling gear looks awful but none of those things would warrent any kind of legislation.  The law should be there solely to protect one’s rights from violation by another.  Obviously there needs to be laws regarding assault, murder, burglary and the like, but things should end there.

  6. TT – An excellent example.  Yes.  Of course it is up to the individuals concerned along with the existing laws, as it should be in any crime.  By that, I mean that it is not up to the State to impose restriction on all women [determining how they dress or behave] because of the few.  It is up to the State to protect the individual, not all of society.

  7. “If I don’t like someone’s perfume, I move away from them.”

    That’s what they mean by a “free and tolerant society”


  8. Welcome, Mesmer.  The problem with society now is that it is anything but free and tolerant.  What’s worse, people’s bigotry is being legitimised by governments and forcing sectiions of society into an ‘underclass’ despite the fact that that section is doing nothing illegal.  Correct me if I’m wrong, but something very similar happened not so far away back in the 30s and 40s where a particular religion was targetted?

  9. Bollox. These arseholes treat their women and very young girls I might add worse than their cattle and their pigs. They cover them up for their own fucked up ideas and treat them as their own personal sex slaves. Then they want to come and live in civilised countries and bring their medievil barbaric practices with them Well they can fuck of back to the shithole they came from. Female circumcision inflicted on young girls OK with you too?  It is absolutely the duty of society to put a stop to these things. I swear “the man” must have really pissed you of one time.

  10. I find it very difficult to have a balanced opinion on the Burqa. No doubt there are sections of the muslim community where it is religious elders who interpret and dictate the meaning of the Quran to their followers resulting in men imposing the burqa on their wives, daughters. But then on the other hand there are the women who hand on heart swear they CHOOSE to wear it.
    I would find it hard to support an out and out ban on it but would expect certain restrictions on its use. For example, in public services, banks, teaching.  There was a recent case in the british high courts regarding a girl who claimed discrimination against her employers against her wearing a Niqab, not a burqa.  In this case I would have agreed with the employers: The girl was a teaching assistant, in a classroom with young children who are still learning the basics of body language, facial expression and emotions. How on earth are these children expected to learn from her if a large proportion of learning is from non-verbal communication.  I appreciate her desire to be true to her faith but I dont have to agree with it.
    Then there is the vile and hideous side of wearing the Burqa: young women with bent, buckled and deformed muscular-skeletal systems because wearing the burqa deprives them vitamin d, resulting in bone deformities, rickets etc. That just doesnt sound very healthy to me.
    I am a firm believer in the Rights of the Human, I would not be a member of Amnesty if I wasnt. However, I  have no right to dictate to these women if they choose to wear their Burqa/Niqab/Hijab. Being forced to wear it on the other hand is the other side of the Human Rights coin. At the end of the day I will always be a libertarian and firm believer in the right to choice.
    We may not like Islam but it is not going to go away. We may complain about them enforcing their culture/religion on us but who the Fuck are we to dictate to them how they should dress themselves. I have more of a problem with Christianity and the atrocities committed in the name of Jaysus Christ. But thats a story for another day.

  11. TT – I agree that a lot of things that other societies find normal, I would find abhorrent.  However, do I have a right to impose my standards on them?  If so, then they have a right to impose their beliefs on me?

    In an ideal world, anyone visiting or settling in a foreign coutry should be prepared to accept fully the norms, the language and the customs in that country.  The norm here is for women not to cover themselves from head to foot, and immigrants should adapt to that.  After all, if I were visiting a Muslem country, I would demand, or even expect a bar on every corner.

    So to answer your point, I would expect them to leave their ‘barbaric customs’ at the point of entry.  I would go so far as to say that that should be a condition of entry that they accept that.  There would be no need for laws on burqas or anything else then.

    Female circumcision is indeed a barbaric practice.  However, do we have the right to impose our beliefs there?  Certainly in our own countries it would fall under the normal legislation that already exists regarding patient’s consent prior to a proceedure?

    With regard to my wearing a seat belt – there are revolutionaries, and there are sensible revolutionaries.  I wear it for one reason and one reason only – because I choose to.

    Becky – I agree it is a tricky situation.  With regard to interviews or security, if I were an interviewer and a burqa clad woman turned up and refused to show her face, I would show her the door.  Similarly, any security guard should have the right to refuse entry to any person who won’t identify their face.  If there are to be laws on burqas, I would suggest that they concentrate on removing any rights to claims of discrimination.

    One of the problems of being a libertarian [I have discovered] is that you really have to redefine your own ideas of tolerence!!!

  12. Fine, I’m fine on the Burqa thing, who really gives a fuck how others dress anyway?
    But there’s surely some typo here:
    It is up to me to determine the impact on others.
    So, if Grandad wants to juggle handgrenades on the 46A that’s OK is it, as long as he has ‘determined’ the impact on others?

  13. I didn’t know it was illegal to juggle grenades on the 46A?  Shit!

    I would assume that no one but a Jihadist would be daft enough to do that anyway?

  14. It should be up to Muslim Women to wear what they want – Who are we to say they are being oppressed by taking the veil.
    Whats next our comely inner city cailins not allowed to wear their pyjamas in public?
    The real issue here is a question of security – I have to remove my crash helmet if I go into a bank or public building. If Muslim women don’t want to reveal their faces – then they can stay outside and mind the goats – simples

  15. Libertarian are you. A follower of the apostle (Ron) Paul. You complain about the U.S  but really you would be quite at home here. Particularly in the southland. With the hillbillys. I can picture you now at my buddy’s place up in the Smokies. Drinking ‘shine out of a jug suspended from a tree branch. Hunting black bear with your dawgs. Sandy?  Off to the fishin’ hole with young Opie. Gotta quit my ribs are aching.

  16. Dessiegee – Precisely.  Though I think pyjamas should definitely be outlawed.  Fucking stupid habit!

    TT – They sound like my kind of people.  Where can I join?

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